#61: Of the language of religion [part 2]

What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object? Nothing if these forces are completely opposed. Mathematically they will reject each other, the unstoppable force turns away to be unstoppable in other capacities. It will not be halted, is not halted by turning away, and both truths are satisfied. The immovable object has not yielded, and the unstoppable force has not stopped.
But what if the immovable object allows an unstoppable force not to pass the boundaries it occupies, but to glide along its surface... what if they share something? what if the object allows the force to enter its walls, but not pass through. what if the unstoppable force finds itself the only light in the darkness of an immovable object? I imagine a circling conch shell design in fibonacci sequences, the light of our force squeezes through the darkness of immobility, though never past it.

This is the correspondence I have with Jack; never ending, never halting, never budging, exponential, full of light and dark, ...

1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987...
* * * * *

Jack -- February 10 at 12:00pm
Hey Colin, I haven't forgot about you and our conversation. I'll get a reply out to you soon.
I was wondering if I could ask a favor from you. There was a good message today on 'Love Worth Finding' by Adrian Rogers. The title of the message today was called, 'Unmasking satan's lies'. Here's the link if you want to listen to it: Love Worth Finding
I listen to it the Windows Media format.
Have a great day.
Thanks,
Jack

Colin -- February 10 at 2:02pm
Dear Jack,

Realizing you have not responded to my previous message I'd like to take a moment to respond to the audio that you sent me. Since it does not directly fall into the pretense of our previous messages I would like to address it outside of the realm of these messages. There is only a moment when sexuality is addressed, and this is the only way I will speak about homosexuality.

There are many claims made in this message, many I agree with. I especially liked the dissection of satan in the garden of eden, because it is this literary distinction that still holds me to the church. This is truly the word of god. The areas of the sermon I do not relate to and have problems with are the areas where the pastor has read past these words to tell us something about ourselves. I will use quotes around what was said in the audio and respond afterwards.

"The closest lies to the truth are the most dangerous" Dr. Rogers makes the case that a clock 5 minutes from correct is more dangerous than a clock that is 5 hours off because of course we know that a clock 5 hours wrong is wrong. I agree with this claim, but I found myself being warned at the beginning of the video because the Dr. is trying to tell us the truth of something. In the bible we are told that we are all sinners, and if this is the case than the Dr. is a sinner, and in sin lives the devil, and the devil is made of lies, and so even in a small percentage the Dr. is a liar. He may not know he is lying, but his words cannot be as pure as the word of god. As he is speaking of god you could say that his words are the "closest lies to the truth" and so his argument defeats himself. He does tell truths, but he also tells lies. I hope to show you how I see his lies.

"a whole generation are going to hell in a handbasket for experimenting; experimenting with drugs, experimenting with sexuality" Here Dr. Rogers makes the claim against experiential religion, that you should trust in the word of god and not experience. Dr. Rogers is in fact giving you the experience of listening to him, and so it is not the word of god, but the word of one man. In my personal religion the only true path to god is to find god in the words of the bible, and the words of the god inside yourself. Later in the message he talks about how the god cannot be inside yourself, but this is also an analogy that many Christians use. That jesus' blood is in us, that he lives in us, that god lives in us, that the holy spirit lives in us, and so it must be that a small piece of god is inside us.

Experientially I believe it is possible to find god by "experimenting" with the god in ourselves. Take hallucinogenic substances for instance... While it may not give us any greater truth, many people claim to see the face of god and speak to god while they are under the influence of these substances. It is experiential, yes, but that does not mean we do not gain experience from the experience. At the very least these substances allow us to see things differently, to see beauty in the ordinary and to be a person we usually are not. This differing of experience is what allows these people to touch god, and it should not be thrown out on account of the fact that it is a "drug". The word "drug" is meant to scare us, but what is so scary about plants that occur in nature. God said you may partake freely of any fruit in my garden, and this is the fruit of nature. Let us experience nature with a natural tool.

"Pantheism humanizes god." In some pagan religions the belief is that god is in everything, the rocks, the trees, the animals, the dirt, and the people. It may shock you, but one of these pagan religions is Christianity. If god was not in the rock than how could the rock exist? The rock is part of god, as are we all! How could there be a case for any other view?

"reincarnation is something that will lead you away from the path of god." Reincarnation is VITAL to the Christian tradition. You will be born again in Christ, Jesus died for your sins so you may be born again. Dr. Rogers limits the view of reincarnation by speaking scientifically about coming back as a specific bug or a celebrity, but what he should do is look at the words metaphorically (an exercise I challenge any Christian to do...). Jesus takes away the sins of our previous life and allows us to be born again.

I'd like to show you two more sides to this argument.

The first is very fundamental: every night we fall asleep and every morning we wake, this is a promise jesus makes to us, that we will live on come the morning. Every day can be seen as a reincarnation of the person we once were, every morning the chance to lead a new and better life. If you do wrong then the morning you wake to will be a hell compared to the life that you could have. If you break a commandment then every day thereafter you will have to live with the consequences. This is truly hell.

The second is for the case of Karma, another "eastern philosophy". Karma essentially boils down to you get what you pay for, and this philosophy is also found in the Christian tradition. As I made the case for before, if you break a commandment of god then you reap what you sow. Karma is not some made believe thing that floats in the air above us any more than god is a make believe thing that floats in the air above us. Karma is another word for god.

A major concern of mine is that Eastern religions make very strong cases for living a good life, for living a life in god, and yet they are shut down by the Christian tradition. You never hear these other churches talking about how their path is the only way to god. In fact you could make the case that the eight-fold path in Buddhism is similar to the path you must make in Christianity. These Eastern religions are inclusive, as Christianity is very exclusive. It's similar to American politics where we say "My way is right because your way is wrong"... where we try to win political points just by putting the other down. Christianity is as valid as any other religion, and these religions can enrich each other just by looking past the specifics.

There are numerous religions that have figures born on December 25th, that have 12 apostles, that were born of the virgin, that were betrayed by their brother, that died and rose three days later... so why can't we learn from our separate religions? Because Christianity sees one view as right and others as wrong? Every religion is valid, and every religion has ways of seeing past the specifics and touching deeper truths. If you would like some specifics of the argument I have made here I will provide you with a link which is attached below.

Thank you for your audio link. I enjoyed listening to it a lot,
Colin

Zeitgeist

Jack -- February 10 at 8:09pm
Colin, thank you for your patience in my response. It does take time to respond with kids and work.
That is interesting what you said about the procreation and the Christian world view. I never knew that. Do you have any other information on that?

Concerning the potential for injury, you mentioned this, "There are men homo and heterosexual who sleep around with other men, these are the men most likely to transmit disease."
Would the heterosexual men be called heterosexual if they sleep around with other men?
According to this website:
"Syphilis cases in San Francisco spiked upward last year (08), ending a three-year decline in rates of the sexually transmitted disease. The reversal of fortune in the city's effort to eliminate cases of the STD has prompted health officials to revive their Healthy Penis campaign, which will return next week. The successful social marketing effort had been retired in 2006, after a five-year run.
According to preliminary data for 2008, the city recorded a 66 percent increase in primary and secondary cases of syphilis, a rise of 339 cases last year compared to the 204 cases reported in 2007. Total early syphilis cases rose 55 percent, going from 472 cases in 2007 to 658 cases last year."
To me that means more homosexual men are getting syphilis.

Concerning 'that you do not have to have anal sex to be gay.'
I agree with that.
According to the Gay and Lesbian Medical Association Press Release, "Ten Things Lesbians Should Discuss with Their Health Care Providers" (July 17, 2002) lesbians are also at higher risk for STDs and other health problems than heterosexuals.

Concerning 'questions about yourself', you didn't mention anything about a father. Did you have a father in your life while growing up?
Concerning 'It was something that I felt'. Did you ever think those feelings were wrong and they might not have been from God?
Were you ever molested as a kid?
Concerning 'I still hope to be a father one day'. You can be a father and have a wife and have kids. There's nothing better than that on the earth. I've been married for 15 years and it keeps getting better and better. Marriage between a man and woman is a mirror of our relationship with Christ without the physical stuff if you know what I mean.

Concerning my wife. I am more understanding than she is concerning homosexuals. She will hold nothing back on them and will tell them up front, 'if you continue in the homosexual lifestyle then your going straight to hell if you don't repent of your sin.'

Thanks,
Jack

Colin Hill February 10 at 8:33pm
Jack,

I'm going to be briefer with this message.

When I said, "There are men homo and heterosexual who sleep around with other men, these are the men most likely to transmit disease," what I should have said was that homo and heterosexual men sleep around. They cheat, a lot of men do. These men are the ones likely to have STDs. If you ask me, they deserve it, but that is not a question of homosexual sin. That's a different sin altogether you have a problem with, no?

I do have a father, we have a healthy relationship.

Honestly I was a little offended when you suggested that the only way for me to have a child is by having a woman. This is something I would like to stress to you, being gay means I'm not attracted to women. I never have been and I never will be. There have been girls all my life I have loved, but I never wanted to have sex with them, and sex is a very important part of relationships. I have hoped and prayed even that I could learn to think a woman is sexually attractive, but these prayers were never answered. I am not going to change my homosexual lifestyle, because it is valid. It is possible to live in god and be a homosexual. It is possible to adopt, and one day there will be a way for two men to have a child with the power of technology.

I was never molested as a child. This is not how someone becomes a homosexual. It has been proven that sexuality is built into my genes, into our genes. It is a part of me, and how could a part of me be anything other than a part of god? I do not believe homosexuality is a sin, I believe rape is a sin, I believe cheating on your loved one is a sin, I believe being in a relationship without sexual attraction is a lie (a sin), but homosexuality is just a fact of life. There have been homosexuals since the beginning of man, and the homosexual act, the love of my fellow man, is not unnatural.

Jack -- February 10 at 9:40pm
Colin, I answered your post before your last one above. I'd like to respond to your post about Dr. Adrian Rogers now.

Concerning Dr. Adrian Rogers and sinning. Do you believe that he is saying lies because you don't agree with him?

Concerning experiences. If our experiences don't match up to the Word of God then they aren't right. I've never heard 'the words of the god inside yourself' before.
If we are born again then the Holy Spirit (who is God) lives in our spirit. See this website for an example:
http://orgs.unt.edu/christianstudents/tracts/mystery.html

You had mentioned, "Experientially I believe it is possible to find god by "experimenting" with the god in ourselves."
If I'm understanding you correctly, I don't believe there is a god in ourselves. The creation cannot be greater than the creator.
I believe when drugs are taken, evil spirits deceive people in thinking that they are talking and seeing God. God wants us to be in full control of our minds. When we take drugs we aren't in control and that gives the devil an opportunity to deceive us.

Concerning the 'Pantheism humanizes god'. I don't believe that God is in a rock or that Christianity is paganism. God resides in Heaven and in the spirits of those that are born again. God can create things and not be in them. He sure isn't in the devil.

Concerning reincarnation, he was talking about being put back into a animal or insects body. The Bible states that it is destined for many to die once and then goes to the judgment. There is no coming back. Once your dead your dead. Concerning Jesus taking away our sins, that is called transformation not reincarnation.

Concerning karma, I don't believe that karma is another name for God because you said, 'karma essentially boils down to you get what you pay for." Christ took our payment for sins if we believe in Him.

Concerning eastern religions, the reason why they are shut down is because of John 14:6. Jesus said that He is the way, the truth and the life and no man can come to the Father but through Him. That is what Jesus said.
That excludes every other religion on the planet. The truth is embodied in a man and that man in Jesus. We can't look past what Jesus says.

Concerning 'figures born on December 25th, that have 12 apostles, that were born of the virgin, that were betrayed by their brother, that died and rose three days later'.
Those were after Christ and the 12 disciples. No one knows what day Jesus was born. I myself celebrate Jesus every day.

I wanted to thank you for your patience again in waiting for my responses.
Thanks,
Jack

Colin Hill February 10 at 10:05pm
Jack,

I think this conversation may have gotten too big... One question.

In John 14:6 Jesus is saying that he is the only way to god, but really John is saying it. These are the words that John has written.

I need you to understand as I do that there are other ways to god, there are other valid religions. Gandhi was not a Christian yet I cannot believe he is in hell because he did not follow Jesus.

One question: is Gandhi in heaven or hell?

Jack -- February 10 at 10:29pm
Concerning being briefer with your message.
Your right, men do sleep around be it homosexuals or heterosexuals and transmit diseases.

Was your father there for you when you were growing up?

Concerning 'I am not going to change my homosexual lifestyle, because it is valid.' If we really believe in God we will believe that a man and woman are to be together in marriage. Anything outside of that is sin. As Paul said it is the Will of God to abstain from fornication. It is not possible to live in God and fornicating with anyone because we aren't doing what God tells us do. It is the opposite of what He says.
I don't think a man will ever be able to give birth to a baby.

Concerning 'I was never molested as a child.' It is a fact that people who are molested continue on with the molestation unless they are truly changed by Christ.
Psychiatrist Jeffrey Satinover says in his book 'Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth' that there is a “substantial, influential, and growing segment of the homosexual community that neither hides nor condemns pedophilia.”

You are correct that we are born with sexual genes because God put them there. If we have sex God expects it to be between a man and woman who are married. That was His plan from the beginning of creation. The devil counterfeits that.
Like I said before the homosexual act is not natural because God made the woman's part for sex. The man's anus is not made for sex.
Thanks,
Jack